Holy cow. I always expect this kind of answer, Menno, but I never get it before, until today.You hit the nail on the head. It is, in fact the government that exploits the people, in each and every case of actual exploitation at work, by preventing the person from being able to take care of himself in other ways.Exploitation, by definition, is something undesirable. So, if I work voluntarily, I can not be exploited, because as soon as I am, the work becomes less than satisfactory and I leave. Unless, I am forced by the government. The business can not possibly exploit any one, it is always and everywhere the government that does the forcing. It does not matter on who's behalf, just like it would not matter that the gun wants to kill you, but only that someone squeezes the trigger.Communists, took this word "exploitation", and as is customary to them, changed it's definition and made it their cause. According to them, exploitation is something a person willfully chooses to get better pay.For instance, a person could choose to work at different place, and earn less, so that some sacrifices in quality of life would be needed, but this is never acceptable. Each person, according to commies, has an innate right to GET the best pay without the downside that it may entail.For instance, according to commies, I was exploited when I was working at 16 in USSR, at a position that was expressly prohibited for underage workers due to the danger. I doesn't matter that I chose it voluntarily. I doesn't matter that I didn't think it was that bad.So, my leaving the USSR, never happened according to commies. I simply have no such choice. It is too inconvenient, it involves me moving overseas, and all without getting everything set up for me (as in the school of idiocy, - the us unemployment office). Someone must work and transform the USSR into a worker's paradise, but it should never be me to solve my own problems.Another thing about this matter is that Commies reject objectivity. They simply are too stupid to understand that each person has it's own views and standards. Consider this example:Here in us, the worker is afforded one lunch per 8 hours of toil, by law. Why one? I, for instance, do not believe I would be exploited if I had none. You, on the other hand, may feel that there are two lunches that should ideally be taken during that same toil time. So, by setting the limit to one lunch, the government knowingly exploits some workers who are subjectively outside of the imposed rule. How can we define what is exploitation and what is not objectively? Only by allowing each to chose his own, but this would be exactly the capitalist system!I can, and in fact I did negotiate with my employer numerous times and set the rules that I likes for myself, different from anyone else. Sure I paid for this with my productivity. Communists insist that no exchange should be made. That any working condition should be achieved just like they counterfeit money, - by a decree, out of thin air!More specifically on China. Of course this is the case of the government forcing people to commit suicide. But you can never explain this point to a commie. Why? Because, to recognize the true cause would in this case be logically be followed that by a thought that the state that can possibly demand obedience, is exactly the state that oppresses and exploits. This would unravel the whole secret about communism, so, of course, they can never agree with this. The usual excuse is that if the government forces worker into a suicide, this is only because either the "big business" did not offer them free lunch, or that the government itself does this on orders from the business.It never occurs to them that a government capable of oppressing will always be used to oppress, and so they create the oppression that they so hate, by first creating the government with these kind of powers.Example. These workers are probably very limited by the government as to:-what information they can read-what legal help they can obtain-where they can relocate-what kind of job they can do-what land they can use-what can they do with the landNow, lets counter-impose this with a capitalist example:A true capitalist government has no such power as to limit anyone with regards to absolutely any activity that isn't directly harming anyone else. Further, no one, no matter how much of a majority, can force any individual to do anything at all, or take anything from that individual.So, in capitalism, such exploited worker is always free to leave, educate himself, start a business, change job, etc.Another good point that brought up is the reverse matter, such as the exploitation of the employer. Communists generally are incapable of understanding this, just like they are incapable of understanding that wages are prices. They are locked into thinking about any matter only from their own point of view, which, by the way, always brings them to murder, since the murdered side point of view need not be considered.I am sure I am preaching to a quire. But really, without accepting the objectivism, it could easily be shown that everyone, in any position, is exploited.

@mavaOk, I have to confess that my comment was a bit out of line since it was more of a provocation than a real addition to the discussion. Anyway, thanks for explaining the reasons that made you leave the USSR.But when you said: All these "exploited" can start their own enterprise, where they work in a wonderfully humane environment.I actually am forced to ask you... how is that really possible, without having access to knowledge nor capital? Like you said, you didn't even knew what a PC was... so how could they start their own business without capital or knowledge about how to do it? I'm not a fan of the USSR politics, in fact, I'm against those communist policies but even then, my opinion is simple, if you do not have access to capital, knowledge and "know how", how can you start a business? You could sell fast food in a street but even that would be taken over easily by fast food chains like McDonalds and similar producers of fatting pig's food...I remember to study a bit of the American depression and one thing that fascinated me was the appearance of the hotdogs. It was a small business that some guy started in order to deliver a simple but highly protein to factory workers. Anyway, many of these workers end up dying to miserable working conditions and diseases... They worked their because if they did not work, there would be no food at the end of the day in their bellies.Btw, when you worked in the USSR, did they pay you at the end of the day or the month?One way of enslaving someone is to pay them by the day just enough, so that the workers could only feed themselves daily. This insures that the worker will comeback at the next day.Despite I support these arguments, I also have to admit that they are not always applicable. The history of my country during the dictatorial ruling of Ant

Yes mava, of course you could have... but since you need to work in that factory so that you could eat, you never did lol...Now I get why you write the way you write.... You just want other people to work has hard has you have and to feel the difficulties that you felt... It must pisses you off to see someone being helped in order to obtain a better life, doesn't it?So it seems that all those news about chinese workers at Apple's Factory wanting to commit suicide, that's probably just socialistic news and stuff right? They could always leave there jobs and go find other jobs that pay better right? Lol... do you have kids mava? do you have family? Or did you work all your life to become someone that hates people that are happy and always worked less than you? How does it feel, to have worked all your life and not stopping a single moment to enjoy the sun, the air or the water on your feet at the beach?Anyway, why did you left USSR if you liked so much to work there? Because changing USSR Government for the US Government, didn't seem to be a good change... lol Maybe you should have chosen Brazil instead :) They are the happiest ppl in the world :) LinkI hope you can continue to have a good life, working as hard as you can! You might one day to remember to live a bit... or two.